PhoenixEclipse's blog

By PhoenixEclipse, history, 4 weeks ago, In English,

I think multiple accounts for one person should not be banned, and am willing to communicate amicably with users who don't agree.

  1. Multiple accounts for one person won't break the rating system. As some people register alt accounts and achieve high ratings in a short time, it may seem that other people are facing more difficulties when trying to increase their ratings. However, some users also give up their old account and register a new one when their ratings drop below 1500, which balances the influence. As long as users don't participate in a single round with multiple accounts, it's not a big deal.

  2. It's not a big deal that alt accounts might show up in Div.2 winner lists. In fact, Div.2 only score boards doesn't mean much. The winners are not extremely well, but just lucky for having their ratings just below 2100. A beginner will likely become a master before reaching the top of Div.2. If a skilled user registered a codeforces account for the first time, he(or she) will be also likely to show up in the winner's list of a Div.2 contest. We can't assume all the new users of codeforces as similar levels.

  3. It's not a big deal that alt accounts might show up in Div.1 winner lists. If they have enough skill, no matter which account they are using, they will achieve good ranks in Div.1 contests. So what's the matter?

  4. Multiple accounts for one person does violate the terms of agreements, but the terms of agreements aren't fixed. It can be edited from time to time to satisfy the needs of the codeforces community. Now I'm appealing to change it.

  5. We need some privacy here. Some participants are so famous that no matter what they post, the whole country (possibly the whole world) will know it. Allowing users to register alt accounts and hide their identity, a bit more privacy in the cyber space won't do much harm. Some malicious to abuse alt accounts and post offensive contents, but it is posting offensive contents, instead of creating alt accounts, that should be punished. We can come up with other ways to stop offensive posts, for example, hide posts by users with too negative contribution might work.

My English is not very well, so please forgive me if I'm not behaving politely.

Any comment is sincerely appreciated.

 
 
 
 
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4 weeks ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +56 Vote: I do not like it

Auto comment: topic has been updated by PhoenixEclipse (previous revision, new revision, compare).

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4 weeks ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +51 Vote: I do not like it

Support.

Div1 already loses like 5000 points each round to the broken rating system, and div2 60000 points. The people making new accounts when they drop below 1500 are actually helping us fight rating deflation. We need the new accounts to lose rating and offset the deflation. These "booster" accounts contribute positively to the community and we need to keep them.

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4 weeks ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +54 Vote: I do not like it

Funny thing is, for a blog post agreeing upon multiple accounts, there are many downvotes, yet no comments / discussions at all (except a comment that further supports the points, from an account I'd say that it's pretty legit).

Is that there are too many childish minds in this community, or ironically many clones that despise themselves?

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    4 weeks ago, # ^ |
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    If you remember the original thread, it’s pretty clear that sensible people won’t try to mess with trolls by writing against this

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      4 weeks ago, # ^ |
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      Yet not all of the one against this should be sensible though...

      I meant, 20-40 people downvoting this before (let's just say they were all legitimate people) can't all be just shy?

      Also, what's the point of just staying silent in a discussion? If it's for trolls, well — you can easily ignore such, as long as your intention is to debate fairly with the writer of this blog post (which, imo, might be a very nice idea if both behaves politely from the start to finish, and I think the writer is eager enough to do so already).

      (Btw, I'm not really participating in this conversation because I have neutral feelings about this. Still, I do hate some clone-makers, for badly toxicating the community, like how they did in both threads)

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        4 weeks ago, # ^ |
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        I just downvoted cause it doesn't make sense, and I have things to do other than this. I'm not a special guy, so I don't really think 20-40 people should be alt.

        Btw, why https://codeforces.com/blog/entry/62483?#comment-464436 is gaining 46 upvotes? :p

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          4 weeks ago, # ^ |
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          Well, I wouldn't say that everyone should make a debate (perhaps I will, but as I stated above, I'm neutral), so no offense/complaints about your decision :D

          As for that comment...

          Hmm... That one went beyond my mind as well. Sometimes this community is just getting weird. :D

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    4 weeks ago, # ^ |
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    Seeing the blog votes bounce like a rollercoaster makes me feel like there are alts spam voting on both positions.

    I find it interesting that such a well-written post gets hit with -40. That's pretty low. Even "help me debug (submission link) no explanation btw" posts only get like -20. The content quality of this post is in like the top 5%. And nobody is offering an opposing viewpoint. Where did all those negatives come from? Alts, probably.

    Then suddenly it gets upvoted all the way to +17 after languishing in the floating "hidden from recent actions" space. I'm highly skeptical that 60 votes materialized out of nowhere when the post was barely reachable.

    Kind of feels like russian spambots polarizing both sides of 2016 US election. But with 2 cf people making like 300 alts instead.

    UPD: now the post go negative again, lol.

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      4 weeks ago, # ^ |
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      I've just slept for 7 hours until seeing this. Well, you might have a point, yet judging from the reaction below, at least we can absolutely confirm that some of the striking-back upvotes are from legitimate ones (Still, no complete opposing opinions as of now).

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4 weeks ago, # |
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This sort of thing should be debated seriously and it is not just have something to do with one's own mind.

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4 weeks ago, # |
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I think he was right. Excellent!

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4 weeks ago, # |
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Why does this blog keep getting downvoted away? Reminds me of the "Why are you booing me" meme.

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4 weeks ago, # |
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Well, it is true some people are too well known. That is why alternative might be "anonymous post/mode" with a certain rating/participation threshold (to avoid alt spam).

For example, user like svlad_cjelli is known too well as lady killer, and people already asking him for love advice (and advice on algorithm, he is bigbrain).

Quora already has something like this, and it might help people who are scared to have opinion tied to name say their true beliefs.

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4 weeks ago, # |
Rev. 13   Vote: I like it -8 Vote: I do not like it

Why u guys just keep downvoting?I think the blog is absolutly right. Fantastic blog. Just as he says, multiple accounts for one person should not be banned.

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4 weeks ago, # |
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I think the blogger's subjective point is right and I will support him

Besides, my English is also not good……

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4 weeks ago, # |
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In my opinion, as long as the person does not intend to use multiple accounts to cheat, it's ok. Especially, when the person's main account has too much rating to get rating from Div3/Div2 rounds, they can always use other accounts to participate in and get rating from the contests.

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    4 weeks ago, # ^ |
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    I think it's not a good idea, since it affects other Div.2 users' ratings. However, I think the scoreboard system for Div.2/Div.3 is not very meaningful, since a user having his skill improving smoothly will graduate from Div.2 before he reaches the top of Div.2. In fact, a large number of Div.2 winners are new participants.

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4 weeks ago, # |
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I agree with point 5, but not point 1. I think the rules can be modified to allow people to own multiple accounts but only one can be used to take part in contests. I myself registered this account because my rating is kind of high and I don't like people whining 'You Just Want Contribution' when I post some stuff around. But since ratings do seem matter to some of the guys, having fake accounts will break the balance, especially for high level coders. Rating deflation can be solved by some brighter and more systematic way, like adjusting the rating calculation formula a bit, not this dirty thang.

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4 weeks ago, # |
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Thank you for your post. Your opinions were very logical, and I also agree with some points from your post. But, I still can't agree with the idea that multiple accounts should not be banned, because of the following reasons.

First, Multiple accounts may not affect average of whole rating distributions, but it makes rating changes more slowly, because their original rating tends to be quite extreme. (like 500-- or 2500++) That means, low rating people will get more rating point than normal, and high rating people will get less rating point then normal.

For example, Let's assume that there are two alt accounts starting at 1500. Their original account has rating of 500 and 2500. For person with rating 1000, he will get more rating point comparing to the situation that both two people uses their original account, because rating change is like this: (win to +500) — (win to -500) > (lose to +500) — (lose to +1500). For person with rating 2000, he will get less rating point, because of the same reason.

This causes more problem because Codeforces is divided with two divisions. On Div1, there tends to be more high-performing alt accounts, which causes other people to drop their rating, even though they performed on their own level. This harms the motivation to compete in contest, because doing nothing will be better choice than doing contest in perspective of ratings.

Second, Getting high rank gives contestants a motivation, which causes them to study more and work hard. On long-term view, it's just a mere win, but it can be a great experience to win a Div2 or Div1 round. Alt accounts take this opportunity away from top-tier Div2 contestants.

Third, I don't think that 'privacy' is not enough in this community. If you want to say something, you can think more because of your information is a bit more open, and it affects your reputation. So they tend to avoid writing shitpost a little more.

Making alt account and writing shitpost is different. It doesn't harm your (real-world or main account's) reputation, and you can freely talk anything you want. This also has some advantages, but they usually give bad effect to community. (We saw lot of examples in https://codeforces.com/blog/entry/62458, right?) We definitely have to delete offensive posts after they are written, but banning an alt account will be a good way as prevention.

Again, thank you for your post. Any more comments are sincerely appreciated.

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    4 weeks ago, # ^ |
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    For the alt account rating comparison, it is much more reasonable to say there's 20 guys with original rating 500 to 1 guy original rating 2500.

    On Div1, there tends to be more high-performing alt accounts, which causes other people to drop their rating, even though they performed on their own level.

    The majority of this issue stems from CF arbitrary rating hacks causing overall net negative rating change.

    Alt accounts take this opportunity [winning round experience] away from top-tier Div2 contestants.

    Doesn't being in div1 take this opportunity away from top-tier contestants who didn't have the chance to get that great experience?

    For alt accounts shitposting, I believe the positives outweigh the negatives. Some of the funniest stuff on CF is from alts. Of course, people will be very rude, and that is unacceptable, but I think the view should be "how do we ban offensive post" instead of "how do we get rid of something that leads to offensive posts 10% of the time".

    The way I see it, alts are an overall net positive to codeforces.

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      4 weeks ago, # ^ |
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      20 guys with original rating 500 vs 1 guy with original rating 2500 doesn't change anything. That means just more inflation on rating changes, and it doesn't change the fact that "low rating people get more, high rating people get less".

      Rating deflation is a certain issue, but rating changes caused by alt account can't be figured out from previous statistics (such as https://codeforces.com/blog/entry/62024), because alt accounts are also included in those statistics. If you want to claim that 'majority of the issue is because of rating hacks', you have to give more data.

      Graduates can't participate in ACM-ICPC World Finals, then is it taking opportunity from graduates? The fact participants with rating over 2100 can't participate in Div2 is a rule, not unfair. If they make an alt account and take win at Div2, that's what taking the opportunity away means.

      Does alt account give funniest stuffs? Then, why don't they write it using their own accounts?

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        4 weeks ago, # ^ |
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        After thinking over it and writing some long paragraphs I concluded that you are right about alts negatively affecting the rating system. But I am curious to know stronger data than just the constructed example. How much worse do these fake accounts actually make things?

        Does alt account give funniest stuffs? Then, why don't they write it using their own accounts?

        That is kind of like having a work phone vs. a personal phone. Some people like to keep the humorous and nonserious side separate.

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        11 hours ago, # ^ |
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        Well, looks like you're right.

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    4 weeks ago, # ^ |
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    Woah, CF is seriously lucky to have dotorya as a member.

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    4 weeks ago, # ^ |
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    I agree with your first view, but I think banning alt accounts may cause serious problems, like what the lack of privacy caused in China.

    It is unfair to users with high ratings. They should have had more influence than common users, but now it's in the opposite situation. Due to the avoidance of possible contribution losses, they may keep quiet about their radical views since posting contentious things is very risky, just like this post showed : my contribution fluctuated intensely between -30 and 30. Codeforces has a developed contribution system, and if privacy can't be protected, no high-rating users will dare to publish radical views. Many experienced Chinese participants stands for alt accounts, but why it is me, instead of them, to post to claim our opinion?

    Thanks for your post. Any comment is sincerely appreciated.

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      4 weeks ago, # ^ |
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      Thinking of your opinion, I also changed my mind. Alt accounts that post non-offensive, but radical posts seems to be meaningful.

      I don't think that this post should get downvotes with no reasons, but people does so. In this case, alt account seems to be a good choice.

      So my current opinion is: Multiple contest-participated accounts should be banned.

      Thank you for your comment!

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        4 weeks ago, # ^ |
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        Thanks, I'm pleasant that we have achieved a common view.

        Thank you for your comment!

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      4 weeks ago, # ^ |
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      Codeforces has a developed contribution system

      Personally, I think the contribution system needs to be totally eliminated.

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4 weeks ago, # |
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I don't know whether the agreements allow users to register multiple accounts or not (because I hardly read the agreements xD). But I think prevent users registering multiple accounts is unnecessary and difficult.

For example, there will be a codeforces round which is rated for Div.3, since it's not rated for high-rating users, most of them prefer using a low-rating account.

But not only by registering new accounts can they achieve their goal. Borrowing accounts from users who are low-rating also works. It's unfair as well.

Thanks to Codeforces providing a perfect environment for us to training and improving our coding level.