DioHERO's blog

By DioHERO, history, 4 months ago, In English

I really admire the names in the "—>Top Rated" section on the right side of the page. But to see that their is no Indian in those names hurts a little. I know India has a strong mathematical heritage and it should have been reflected in the particularly new paradigm of Computer Science also, but sadly it doesn't. So, what do you guys think are some reasons that Indians don't have any coders in not only Top 10 but also none in Top 100? I didn't particularly research on this topic but here are some reasons I can think of.

  • Most of the people who start CP is because of Jobs. I don't think there is anything wrong with it but this type of motivation won't take anyone far. Indians become Candidate Master or Master and stop CP completely after getting a job.
  • Due to almost 0 coding culture in high schools. Well a typical Indian starts coding in college(most people in 2nd year to be honest) and considering they have 3-4 years to do CP, I don't think many people can become a "RED" in this span.
  • Late arrival of CP hype in India. Not many knew about CP some years ago. Indians have drastically increased in CF community in-turn leading to high participation in current contests. This might help in changing the current scenario of "RED" coders.(Also a side-effect that cheating has increased due to this)

These reasons are really crude, but anyways, what do you guys think?

 
 
 
 
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4 months ago, # |
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As someone who is not from India, I want to add some things just so you know who you are comparing yourself with.

Late arrival of CP hype in India.

I think no other country has CP hype like this (maybe the hype arrived early in India?). Here, few people outside Olympiad circles know that competitive programming even exists. As far as I can see, a large portion of CS students in India take up competitive programming. This is immense popularity.

Due to almost 0 coding culture in high schools.

We also have almost 0 coding culture in high schools. Do other countries have coding culture in high schools? In Estonia, there are about 3 high schools that teach programming. Most who started competitive programming in high school are self-taught to some degree.

Again, not from India. I don't want to guess what the reason is. But I think it is important to clear up expectations or maybe misconceptions about the rest of the world.

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    4 months ago, # ^ |
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    Ahh right, I was interested in knowing the reasons behind this scenario and won't say my given reasons are accurate in any way. Anyways, there's no denying the fact that Estonia has more % of RED coders than India, (1/61 >> 12/33000).

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      4 months ago, # ^ |
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      To be honest Estonia is a bad country to compare with because it is so small and the statistics are determined by the actions of only a few people (btw there is another GM in Estonia who has not set his country). It is better to compare to countries like Poland and Russia.

      It is also interesting to note that most West European countries also have fewer grandmasters than East European, even though the west is more developed than the east. It may be about culture or values, I don't really know.

      Anyways I definitely think your first point could be a culprit.

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        4 months ago, # ^ |
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        As you said zero coding culture in school, but I guess there are few other reasons too, but from recent events I could say that there is this mentality of people or opinion of them, might be they are right and I am wrong, there is friend of mine who wanted to become red he is currently master rated, so he consulted with many people from IITs,so everyone said why there is need of becoming red, you have worked so hard to enter IIT now why this hard work for nothing, Instead you could focus on dev and get a kickstart in companies you will join, so from childhood in india,goals of people are very much motivated by money rather than their own interest. Hence, there are only small percentage of people who actually focus on Olympiad or any mathematical culture, even if some are capable in college to become red they are not motivated to do so. So either there is lack of motivation among the intelligents or lack of intelligence among highly motivated. But due to this culture indians have dominated IT Industry they are everywhere working at low salary stealing foreigners job.

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        4 months ago, # ^ |
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        hello, im sorry to ak but can you please look into this https://codeforces.com/blog/entry/91316

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        4 months ago, # ^ |
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        its because CP is all about communism and maths.

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      4 months ago, # ^ |
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      Laptop Avilable for most of indian student at the age of 19.

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    4 months ago, # ^ |
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    Do other countries have coding culture in high schools?

    I think some larger countries definitely have a decent coding culture in highschool, at least more so than other places. Even many average public schools in the US have some sort of a coding club, though not necessarily on competitive programming. I don't know the situation in India, but my guess is places like the US and especially China have a much larger programming contest popularity in highschool than India relative to population (not to say it's very known among the population as a whole, but is a respectably sized niche).

    India should statistically have more reds as it has a much higher population of cpers, but you can see few people starting in highschool in India while some of the best people from the US are still in highschool currently (though of course, it is harder for me to know who in India is from highschool). It is also obvious that highschoolers have more time to spend on useless hobbies, which is why many of the new red's (at least from US) are in highschool. Hopefully programming and cp can become more popular in highschool among more places tho.

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    4 months ago, # ^ |
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    I think no other country has CP hype like this

    What you think is entirely wrong.

    a large portion of CS students in India take up competitive programming

    I can assure you that this is not a large portion of CS students in India.

    We also have almost 0 coding culture in high schools

    No disrespect for you country. This blog is written based on comparison with countries like Russia, China and USA where coding is introduced in schools. If you are saying people in every country has no coding experience in high schools then who are participating in IOI.

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      4 months ago, # ^ |
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      I can assure you that this is not a large portion of CS students in India.

      Some other Indians on this platform have written that it is almost everyone. How do I know who to trust?

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        4 months ago, # ^ |
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        You have no idea what large part of CS students in India means. Many of my friends are good at maths and still don't do CP. Less than 5-10% who are studying CS in India does CP.

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          4 months ago, # ^ |
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          Hmmm man I don't think I agree with that 5-10% part.

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            3 months ago, # ^ |
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            I don't have stats to back this up, but my instinct is that the percent of US college students studying CS who have competed in >= 3 codeforces contests is way less than 5%, probably even less than 1% of CS college students. Even if it's just 5% of CS students in India, that's still very popular in comparison.

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          4 months ago, # ^ |
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          This is definitely not true. The number is much more than 5-10%.

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            4 months ago, # ^ |
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            The number varies by different coding platforms but numbers on codeforces are pretty low compared to others. According to statista, there were 800K+ students enrolled into CSE in 2019.

            There are around 30K+ Indians on codeforces which makes the number less than 4% (that's NOT considering those who aren't studying CP or have already graduated)

            While on codechef, there are 270K+ India accounts. The number is even higher platforms like Hackerrank, going as high as 1.5M+. Though my guess would be that most of those accounts are dormant.

            It's hard to really estimate the percentage. Some only practice problems on these platforms for jobs, some may give contests once in a few months and very few do it regularly. I'd call only the last category coming under CP-ers. In fact, if anyone is seriously doing CP, they surely would be on CF and CF numbers are way less compared to total CS students from India).

            As per me, even 5-10% of current Indian CS students actively doing CP seems an over-estimate and the real number is probably less.

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          4 months ago, # ^ |
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          I think atleast 50% college students in India take part in CP and 5 — 10% are really serious coders. Though we can't really find an approx figure on this subject.

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        4 months ago, # ^ |
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        India produces around 1 million engineers annually, for approximation lets consider 1/30 engineering students are from cs background, that gives us 33333 students per year from CS, on cf 33560 people are registered from India.

        We can say that many people have not set their country, but that wont affect much also people from other specialization do cp as well.So we can clearly see what proportion of people have atleast tried to do cp.

        There are much more Indian participants on cc but I am not going to consider that since anyone who wanna do cp seriously will register on cf XD.

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        2 months ago, # ^ |
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        Also codeshef is more popular than codeforces in india;(personal experience)

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    4 months ago, # ^ |
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    I am not sure but most probably cause in other countries people do CP cause they like it and here in India people do it cause they think have to do it. And during high school, people in other countries self-study for clearing some entrance exams (I am not sure abt this tho) but here in India they opt for some coaching institute and allot a lot of time to that instead of figuring out what to do.

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    4 months ago, # ^ |
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    And very few best students from India take up cp as in the students who were ranked top 100 in India in JEE exams. I don't think even 5% of them take up cp because they already have proved themselves by becoming top in such a difficult exam. They take the research route during university when they are introduced to CS and don't care about going for another stupid(maybe) competition.

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      4 months ago, # ^ |
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      JEE is stupid, competitive programming isn't.

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        4 months ago, # ^ |
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        Lmao, calling the world's toughest entrance exam "stupid" clearly shows your mentality.

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          And thinking JEE is actually world's toughest entrance exam is ignorance XD

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            4 months ago, # ^ |
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            It is one of the toughest. Definitely not the toughest.

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              4 months ago, # ^ |
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              Yeah I agree on that

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                3 months ago, # ^ |
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                chill out guys I AM THE RED YOU WANT

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            4 months ago, # ^ |
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            it is a very tough exam(maybe one of the toughest for a HIGH SCHOOL student)for sure but we should remember that there is nothing in it's syllabus that actually goes beyond hs level pcm and it isn't supposed to. our coaching institutions coupled with hs teachers scared of teaching the "JEE level knowledge" plants this idea into our head that its the absolute toughest we'll ever have to do. On the other hand STEM students in USA (and several other countries which might not have similar infra) spend time seeking out their passions and doing stuff in that specific area be it science fairs, comp prog, research with a college prof, taking college courses, science summer schools, entrepreneurship or tons of other things. Note all the things I mention make you focus your interests on a single specific sub area of STEM and hence it is much tougher than anything JEE could ever throw at you.

            Hence these students automatically become "more capable, "more original" and lots of other things which we as Indians simply can't unless we let go of following conventional paths set out for us and explore stuff beyond it

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              4 months ago, # ^ |
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              "There's nothing that goes beyond Hs knowledge"

              Have you seen the JEE Advanced papers from 2016 onwards?

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                4 months ago, # ^ |
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                mmm (a) the main point was to say there's much more than jee to do and (b) yes indeed i have and if you compare any of the pcm questions though tricky, they require no new concept or knowledge which can't be inferred from taught syllabus. They are just 'tricky' Don't belive me? go to any coaching agencies jee adv breakdown and they'll give you the exact concept from ncert where the question came from :)

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                  3 months ago, # ^ |
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                  While your previous reply doesn't make sense/isn't true, this one does, but it isn't fully true tho.

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          4 months ago, # ^ |
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          Worshipping JEE as an entrance exam for computer science clearly shows your mentality.

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            4 months ago, # ^ |
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            It is not just for computer science though. It is for whatever field of Engineering you want to study in the best universities of India. Computer Science just seem to be the most popular choice for obvious reasons.

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              4 months ago, # ^ |
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              It isn't a good test/indicator of potential or skill in computer science. I don't know how relevant it is to other fields of engineering.

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                4 months ago, # ^ |
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                But almost everyone who get CS in top IITs(of course the general quota) have done tremendously well if you look at the alumni. How are you going to judge then who should get the CS seats when the majority of the bright students don't have resources or know anything about CS.

                CP is also very very different from actual CS so its not an indicator aswell if someone will do well in CS research etc. Its all about testing analytical skills same as JEE(maybe chemistry is an exception).

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                  4 months ago, # ^ |
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                  It is possible to do very well in JEE with a lot of rote learning and memorization. It isn't necessarily a test of problem solving skills or analytical skills. However if you look at the top 5 or 6 IITs, then yes, getting a rank in top 500 or 1000 does require good problem solving skills, and so these people are likely to be good at computer science.

                  Though, apart from a few IITs, NITs, IIITs etc. at the very top, I think the correlation between JEE rank and problem solving skills/computer science skill/ability/potential fades away quickly. You could have someone in a tier-3 college with good CS skill or someone in a tier-1 college not so good at CS.

                  The thing is, why should someone have to study Physics and Chemistry if they don't like it? Unfortunately there aren't many alternatives to JEE because of our population, but that doesn't mean JEE isn't stupid (IMO). Universities in some countries provide admissions to students on the basis of olympiad performance, but in India there are only 3-4 universities that do this. Maybe this number should be increased.

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                  4 months ago, # ^ |
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                  I agree with the fact that there should be alternative for guys who are privileged enough to know cp from a young age but because of our population, it is very difficult.

                  And you first line is incorrect, apart from chemistry there isn't any rote learning and memorization involved. In fact, Physics is a very very good means to judge someone's understanding capabilty (even more than cp) if you are getting admission in a supposedly "Engineering" colleges. CP has nothing to do with someone being good at CS research.

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                  4 months ago, # ^ |
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                  CP has nothing to do with someone being good at CS research.

                  Yes, you don't need to do competitive programming to work in or study CS, but it definitely is more closely related to CS than physics is. And you're wrong, many students memorize a lot of stuff, formulae, equations etc. in physics without having a clear understanding of how it all works. And many of them are also able to get good ranks by doing this.

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                  4 months ago, # ^ |
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                  Not really true if you've seen JEE Advanced physics problems. Mains, yes. But isn't it true in cp aswell? I mean upto 2100 rating you don't have to that smart or something, just solve lots of problems till that level and you will start seeing same patterns in contests aswell. After that, the top people keep on going, same for top rankers in JEE. So, it is just other competitions like JEE. It might be that you are better at cp that pcm so you hate it which is understandable.

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                  4 months ago, # ^ |
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                  Observing and applying patterns, vs rote learning and memorization, two different things. I don't think people can get to 2100 by memorizing any patterns, techniques, or algorithms.

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                  4 months ago, # ^ |
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                  Im curious. Can anyone defend the inclusion of chemistry as a subject in JEE? Literally all the problems I have with with the entire system of engineering entrances can be traced back to the fact that chemistry is involved.

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                  4 months ago, # ^ |
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                  True having chemistry as a general subject does not make sense at all, also when we consider the hell that is called inorganic XD. Maybe it is done to create exposure to that subject :shrug: Chemistry feel too specialized subject for a general exam.

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            4 months ago, # ^ |
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            Not many schools in India have access to computer education, leave alone computer science. How would a student from, say, Murshidabad, fair against a child from Kolkata in this context? JEE is good in giving children equal oppurtunities (mind you, JEE, NOT coaching institutes).

            And the top 500 rankers in JEE Advanced, who go on to select CS, do become the best competitive programmers in the country. The best in this country currently is Hanit banga, an IIT Delhi alumni.

            Your next point?

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              4 months ago, # ^ |
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              Well said

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              True.

              8/11 active reds are IITians.

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              4 months ago, # ^ |
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              Then maybe there should be more focus on setting up computer labs in schools than on setting up thousands of NTA centres with computers. And regarding your second point, I agree (look at my reply to codecodemore above).

              Hanit banga, an IIT Delhi alumni

              *IIIT Delhi, and he was already good at competitive programming before he entered college: https://www.iarcs.org.in/inoi/2016/inoi2016/results_inoi2016.php#qualify

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              4 months ago, # ^ |
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              Umm... Hanit Banga is from IIIT Delhi and not IIT Delhi. Which just goes on to show that JEE is not a good measure of how good one is in competitive programming. Also, CS isn't just about competitive programming.

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              3 months ago, # ^ |
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              Just to correct you he was from IIIT Delhi not IIT Delhi and according to cutoffs he must have surely achieved a decent rank in JEE .

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        4 months ago, # ^ |
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        Ahh Those sour grapes

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        4 months ago, # ^ |
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        I know you were not able to qualify for it. No need to be salty about it.

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        Spoiler
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    honestly i think that the biggest problem is that people simply arent motivated enough to do cp in India. In high school most STEM students are racing to get into IITs mostly not because they're into science but because of peer pressure, parental pressure, and direction-less goals of simply getting a "high package" from their jobs. Most people who get into the top CS batches of these esteemed institutions got in on 0 ability in CS (they didn't do CP, independent projects, research or anything of the sorts but really just got a good score on an over-glorified HS syllabus based PCM exam) and in most cases 0 genuine interest in the field.

    When you look at students in CS(or virtually any other STEM field) at MIT, Harvard, or any of the best places in US on the other hand they've usually already done something concrete in their respective interests and also know how to convey their achievements to society. Without lack of curiosity in our Indian society (mostly killed by coaching institutes and other factors) people simply don't see the point of doing tricky puzzles for increasing their own aptitude unless there's some superficial "reward" attached to it

    Really hope that our country's esteemed institutes change evaluation methods for acceptance and that we as a collective can inculcate more general values of being curios and unafraid of failure rather than just sticking to the conventional "paths" (read JEE exam prep) already carved out.

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      4 months ago, # ^ |
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      Have you heard of something called "awareness"? Kids in USA are aware of CP, hence they do it. In our country, not many are aware.

      I remember coming to college and finding out mostly all the stuff can be learnt online. Had I known this before, I would have my JEE and been in an IIT instead of where I am now. But the point is, such awareness is not there among all students.

      One more point, I have observed is that kids in other countries actually have a passion to do stuff, like robotics or ML, where as here in India if you leave our children, they'll play the entire day.

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        4 months ago, # ^ |
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        well im still in high school and i started doing cp, kaggle, and lots of independent ai stuff. Even got to do an internship with an IIT-D prof who I seeked out and got interested in me all by my own.

        I guess the thing is just about whether you can break out of the chain of peer pressure and societal expectations they put around you and just say 'NO, JEE is not meant for me, I want do stuff cause I like it not cause I simply wanna get into uni and trust me there's lots better things to do than JEE to get into much better unis so please mind you own business and let me do my thing'.

        Sure people (even the smart ones) will make fun of you and say you're doing shit for not doing JEE but that doesn't make them right, you just need to remember that people around you just don't know stuff and if you can you should help them explore more. I'm sure this would increase "awareness"

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          4 months ago, # ^ |
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          I can bet that you are living in a metropolitan city, and you actually have (I'm taking a big gamble here regarding the downvotes, but I'll be honest) qutie rich parents (in the Indian context, of course.) Likewise, you go to an extremely affluent school , and this is the reason why you don't WANT to take part in JEE. Well, good for you, and may you achieve success wherever you go, but the entire population of India isn't exactly like you, so please keep this in mind.

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            4 months ago, # ^ |
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            yes i recognise that India is a large developing country with a standardised exam required for the masses which remains accessible and don't deny that i am extremely lucky to be from privilege.

            But then again none of the things i mentioned requires resources if you have the will to explore and stop sticking to convention. Vast majority of JEE aspirants spend copious amounts of money to get into and pay fees for top coaching places. Example: Olympiads require no "privilege" if you have the will to study through it and gain deeper knowledge, and this is still "tougher" and deeper insight into a sub field than JEE. Science fairs like ISEF, Microsoft, etc specifically promote students of all backgrounds and there's 10s of 1000s who do it because their schools(don't read posh private but ALL be it KV or Birla Vidyalaya) kept their students motivated and the students had will to do something more. Internships with profs/entrepreneurship probably the toughest things on the list inherently has outreaching and gaining funds on yourself in the definition. ayush sharma got into MIT through this even whilst coming from an underprivileged background and the point isn't that only 1 kid could do it but that only 1 had the perseverance. and finally the topic of thread cp, kaggle, etc : These are inherently self selected groups as pointed by many and if you have a basic computer (which if you can spend money on coaching for you def should think about buying) you can start accomplishing wonders.

            Yes there's more risk for those less fortunate in being unconventional but that doesn't mean there's 0 risk for me or anyone who sets their own path. If you believe in yourself your "socio-economic" background can't stop you :)

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    4 months ago, # ^ |
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    You should read this. This resolves the problem..

    https://codeforces.com/blog/entry/91265

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    Well I think you are talking about your country or the neighbouring ones, but I think in China they introduce programming at a very early stage which is evident from the top coders list of china (most of them are high school students).

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    3 months ago, # ^ |
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    WAIT EVOLUTION IS ON THE WAY."I AM COMING "

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This may change, as i see many school kids becoming red now, which was rare 5 years back.

For example kshitij_sodani is now rank 2 in india and if im not wrong he must be 14-15, so you never know, maybe in near future there can be LGMs as well

also, T1duS, Everule are all school kids and all have been red (i know a few more)

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4 months ago, # |
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No worries! Indians coming to conquer CP within few years as they do in other fields ;) (Just for motivating Indian coders :) ) Few reasons I wanna mention : 1. No one told us about CP thing before our 2nd year and most people got to know it after graduation. (True and almost everyone mentions this one) 2. The time most <18 year old spend is on sports and other hobbies and coding is not advised so early on coz kids eyesight reduces( weird but true ) 3. Instead of using computers for coding almost all elders advise learning some hardcore mathematics. 4. People here have a craze for Government jobs so no CP by any chance. If I get more such points I'll keep updating on this comment :)

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4 months ago, # |
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In Chinese senior-highs , the five competions(MO,PhO,BiO,ChO,OI) can be so important for them. Leaders of the schools pay much attention to these competitions , but this is only limited in the eastern regions. Almost all of Chinese masters (Red names and Black-red names) come from those regions . I live in a western province , and in this region we put little resource into competitions. It can be so hard for us to get some achievements in the NOI (National Olympics of Information) , so that fewer and fewer students in our region study for competitions. As for coding culture , not so good in China , especially in some backward regions . Maybe you guys didn't know the "Strengthing Basical Subjects Plan" —— a policy on university admissions , made it more difficult to get rewards from competitions and lessened the students' enthusiasm to competition studying. Whether the environment of CPs in China will be better or worse still remains to be seen.

A photo in addition:

(The characters “强基” means the "Strengthing Basical Subjects Plan" )

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    4 months ago, # ^ |
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    Nice Picture.23333

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    3 months ago, # ^ |
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    Translation: 'Strengthing Basical Subjects Plan trap inside. Please do not approach.'

    Actually, this photo was probably taken outside a construction site and that sign was originally a warning for people to stay away from a (real)hole. That was a Chinese pun.

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4 months ago, # |
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Most of us are blindly following the herd.
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    4 months ago, # ^ |
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    Exactly and adding to that, even if someone doesn't want to follow the herd, it becomes very difficult to swim against the tide. It's like if the best are taking CS / doing CP, there must be something that I am missing or can't see clearly right now. But the truth most of the times is that the best are also following the herd, the herd of their seniors and alumni.

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Lack of Introduction to Mathematical competitions in school is i guess the major culprit. If india also starts having mathematical circles like those which are in Russia, then there may be possibilities of LGM. But seeing the current mindset of typical Indian parents and lack of a good education system, it seems hard in near future.

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    4 months ago, # ^ |
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    Lack of Introduction to Mathematical competitions in school

    • participating in mathematical contests doesn't guarantee that you become LGM . It doesn't even guarantee that you will become red.
    • And I guess that the college entrance examinations in India is pretty hard...I've heard that students start prepping for it from middle school..
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      4 months ago, # ^ |
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      even doing CP day and night for 100 years solving 100k problems doesn't guarantee you will become LGM or red.

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        4 months ago, # ^ |
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        -_-

        I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or serious.

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      4 months ago, # ^ |
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      He is talking about the environment. There is no competitive environment for anything other than exams.The olympiads exposes young students to that environment and all the fun and competition that comes with it.But no one even hears about these competitions.

      Why do you think India is so dominant in other sports and even chess.Its because chess is played in large numbers since middle school but no one even hears about olympiads.

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    4 months ago, # ^ |
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    In Russia, there are such circles only in the big cities, most cities don't have such opportunities:(

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the number of red Indians (no pun intended) is increasing at around 2 per division 1 contest :P. In the last Deltix round I guess 3 new Indians broke into red rating?

After 5 years, when there will be 10s of Indian IGMs, the only thing that you will regret is writing such blog posts and not practicing and not being able to join the party xD

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Its simple and its related to IQ. Example: china has highest number of red coder (180+) because average IQ in china is 106. On the other hand India has only 15 red coder although number of people practicing cp is mush higher than China. Average IQ in India is 81

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    4 months ago, # ^ |
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    Don't think average country IQ really plays a role here -- when you're primarily looking at a pool of bright high schoolers and motivated college students who do CP, it's very hard to say that as a whole they're representative of the intelligence of their country.

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    4 months ago, # ^ |
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    • wtf are you even talking about. Many students in china start CP from middle school ( like djq_cpp ).They start CP from a very young age because it allows students to bypass the college entrance exams and get into top universities. Some students even have coaches to train them.

    • Your claim about "avg iq" is also total bs.

    NOTE : I am not Chinese so please correct me if I'm wrong in the first point

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    Please do not say tough words like these , since that can be disrespectful to Indians.

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    I think average IQ is related to education systme. Indian education system is one of the worst education system in the world.

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Here's my thoughts on the issue: my understanding is that in India a lot of people don't start CP until they reach college (I'm assuming that high school cp culture isn't very large there, although I may be very wrong, but considering the amount of people that start CP in India because of job prospects in college, it's a reasonable assumption).

In contrast, a lot of the top kids from China/Russia/United States started CP in middle school or early high school, and had a ton of time to practice and improve. College is more time intensive and as you have to juggle more responsibilities, you might have less time to just focus on a hobby like CP.

Just my 2 cents, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

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    You are right.

    When we are in school, we only care about JEE exams(around 1.5 mil students appear for some 10k seats(around 1k in CS ig) which is a route to the best universities of India. So, we focus on Physics, Chemistry and Maths until the age of 18. So,when the very best students of India(let's say the top 500 in the JEE exams) are introduced to CS, around 90% of them go for research route instead of starting another rat race for some other competition as they have already proved themselves. I'd say 90% of students didn't even know what programming was before 18 but its definitely changing now a days. Still, as long as the JEE exam is there, I don't think cp is going to be that popular among high schoolers.

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Don't worry, India is going to completely dominate in future.

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Because no Anime TV channel in India.

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Yes, if you do cp with the motivation of getting a job you won't go far. Because once Indian students reach like CM or Master, they start getting interview calls from google,facebook and other really high paying companies and once you receive the offer letter, the motivation to push yourself even more kind of dies.

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I think here are many reasons for this. CP is not as popular as the olympiads in india , majority of high school students don't even know that this field even exist. That why they start doing CP so late . Also there are some factors which can be considered if we compare this from other countries like the a good quality internet has reached to people so late , there is no subject dedicated to CP , they focus more on development , yeah and it takes time to build an environment like that for CP , and many of you might agree that this can be considered as the 1st generation of which is aware about CP ,so i will say it will take time to improve , but it will improve in the future for sure .

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i dont really care

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Because Indians worship cows, and bulls get angry when someone is red.

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Well, almost 95% people in India who do cp come to know about it in college/university.At this time the need for job is much more than excelling in the sport. Yhis is why people dont even care to know what is red coder or how to get it.

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This whole blog feels like a Deja vu. I feel like I've seen the same argument and the same people replying to the same argument with a similar argument so many times at this point.

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Also in Bangladesh situation is the same.I don't thank it's the lack of coding culture in general.I think it's the poor education system + not too ambitious mentality of a society(when they raise their child).For example, if I had known about IOI when I was 10 or even 15,certainly I would have been red by now.But I got to know about cp only just about a year ago.

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Why So less "RED" coders in India?

Why not

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4 months ago, # |
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https://codeforces.com/blog/entry/86164 Why is by blog downvoted and your upvoted? I’m so confused.

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Answer is simple, because you aren't

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The main reason- IIT-JEE and the immense "Multiple Choice Question" culture. When I started preparing for the mathematical Olympiad in late high school, I was absolutely fascinated that math was not about calculations but rigorous proofs and logical arguments. Now compare this with JEE math- probably the most boring math syllabus of all time; add to this the MCQ culture. Students here are concerned about how to get the final answer, not the process of arriving at the final answer. Even the proofs given in the textbooks are supposed to be memorized so that we can reproduce the exact proof for school exams. What does all of this lead to? Students coming to college and studying CS because they want to get a job. Memorizing algorithms without caring what is the proof of the algorithm. One may be able to crack coding interviews like this but CP? Hell no.

Second reason, which people don't properly point out anywhere, is fake "Olympiads" being conducted in India. Every Indian must have given the so called "International Informatics Olympiad" and "International Mathematics Olympiad" during their school days; the organizations conducting these tests just slightly changed the name of the actual, real Olympiad, got away unharmed, and advertised their tests so heavily all around the country, that I got to know about the real "International Mathematical Olympiad" so late in my pre-final year of high school. Had I known about the existence of the real Olympiads earlier, I would have prepared much better. Hence, high schoolers here don't even know that the IOI exists, so preparing for the IOI is out of question(Indian performance in IPHO and ICHO is pretty nice because of huge overlap of their syllabi with the syllabus of IIT-JEE).

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    4 months ago, # ^ |
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    On point with the fake Olympiads! I wish I knew about the scam then. But to be fair, I still found it more fun than the school syllabus, esp IMO.

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I concluded some things after reading some of the Indian blogs:

1- Indians have bad sense of humour and they can't handle jokes/puns.

2- Even though they pretend not to be racist, they the most racist community here

3- They envy each and every country, which is performing better than them, even though they can't compete with them.

4- Most of them are freeloaders and take code forces for granted and start discussing any political scenario of their country.

5- They make useless blogs and are bad at arguments and debate and retort with abuse very often if they are being suppressed in argument.

6- They make useless stupid blogs and pretty much look down upon anyone having low rating than them.

Tell me if I'm correct.

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    4 months ago, # ^ |
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    TRUE, but,...just a heads up..get ready for an army of downvotes. hope you make it out alive

    :)

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    As an Indian, I second that. The correct terminology is "problems" and not "questions", but when somebody points that out to an Indian, they get offended and start debating with non-sensical arguments.

    Although not sure about some points. Not all Indian blogs are useless. Just today I was reading an Indian blog on sum over subsets DP, an Indian also made some editorials to CSES Problemset. Many genuine Indian competitive programmers are actively contributing to the community, it's just that the overwhelming amount of non-serious Indians who have made a CF account just for the sake of it make all of us look bad.

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    4 months ago, # ^ |
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    yes, they should use their own CP websites (like TOPCODER or CODECHEF) forum for such kind of discussion.

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      You can't just say CF is your own site, if literally half of the community is Indian:/.

      PS- I am glad you think TOPCODER is ours but please update yourself.

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    I really feel you should give Indians another chance, downright looking down on a country is arrogant and you should stop it. Even if you feel something might be true, don't make it real by writing it down and making it real for yourself. Looking down on us and saying we look down on everybody is nonsensical, don't you think? Try to be more generous and don't spread hate please:)

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      Well, that's what I exactly think, even though there is nothing racist in my comment, but you're making it out look like racist, I just summarised what I felt after reading Recent Actions spammed with tons of Indian blogs,now you just start playing victim and make me a hate spreader and racist, irony is strong here.

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        4 months ago, # ^ |
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        I am not trying to show you as anything, I am sorry if you feel that way. The comment was provoking but I won't argue further. Have a nice day:)

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          That's it son. Kill em with Kindness.

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    I concluded somethings after reading your comment: 1.)You are funny.

    2.)Don't know if i am racist but i am definitely ratist and i just literally can feel a bad smell oozing out of you.(fkin dumb pupil).

    3.)Yes of course ,we are incomptent thats why i became expert after just 14 contests with a current rating of 1760,oooof my incompetency.

    4.)Yes we were the one who were writing in Trump,2020 or Biden,2020 in comments of codeforces blog.Our president was being elected.

    5.)And some useless pupils even comment there ,just wondering why.

    6.)100000% agree,i am feeling ashamed of myself that i am replying to a comment of a pupil(infact a dumb one).

    You see i agreed to your every point above ,you are definitely correct.

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4 months ago, # |
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The same reasons we are not good at the Olympics.

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I just wanted to point out that there is a fair amount of renowned Indian algorithmic researchers. State there is certainly better than one would expect extrapolating based on CP performance.

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    4 months ago, # ^ |
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    Just curious, are these Indians living in India, or are you referring to India born people or maybe people whose parents were born in India but the children themselves grew up in USA etc?

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      3 months ago, # ^ |
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      I am not exactly sure, I am mainly repeating what I have heard before. From the top of my head, examples I can give include famous AKS primality test authored by Agrawal, Kayal, Saxena, algorithm for the maximum flow known in Poland as "algorithm of three Hindi guys" authored by Malhotra, Kumar, Maheshwari and some renowned Indian researchers I've heard of include Saket Saurabh or Kunal Dutta, but for sure there are much more. Both seem to originate from The Institute of Mathematical Sciences in Chennai, where there will probably be much more of good examples. Maybe xorfire can shed some more light (if he ever sees this mention :P)

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        3 months ago, # ^ |
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        adding kosaraju algorithm(but the fact is most of the Indian which succedes has left their nationality or lives in another country.

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          3 months ago, # ^ |
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          This is not that specific to Indians I guess. In research world many scientists work in various institutes across the globe throughout the years

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        AKS primality test originated from IIT Kanpur. (Indian Institute of Technology Kanpur)

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          "both" referred to Saket and Kunal :D

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There's no real awareness about programming in Indian Schools. I was lucky to have introduced to programming [basic C++] in high-school. Due to current pandemic, my younger brother (age — 13 yrs) got the chance of seeing what I really meant when I tell my parents There's a contest today.
He instantly got hooked and with only math and some knowledge of Scratch(they teach in school), he attempted ZIO [Indian OI stage 1] and to my surprise even qualified for INOI (My first and only INOI attempt was when I was 17 yrs old).

If you wanna search my brother
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    4 months ago, # ^ |
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    That's so cute, he is doing CP in 13 years of age. Give him my best, I hope the younger generation likes CP for the fun of it and don't care about silly factors like Jobs and CV.

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Actually most of the coders stop doing competitive programming after getting job. And many of us are doing competitive programming to show achievement(rating) in our resume.

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I'm tired of seeing this blog in the homepage

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4 months ago, # |
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I think reasons can vary widely from north to south and people who are rich and middle class. As:

  1. In many countries internet was a necessity from about 2013-2014 even earlier in some developed countries but in our country at that time internet was just a privilege. Jio made the internet widely accessible which started online coding culture. Because my cousins who graduated in 2014-15 always used to say they couldn't get reliable internet for the hackathon. Then you can think about how CP would develop in such an eviorment.
  2. Almost every Red Coder started coding about 8-9 years ago. So, that explains India's condition. Now the situation is changing but still, people are more interested in CP for job interviews than CP itself because many still don't want to put much effort into it because it might affect their college/school and eventually placement/boards.

The second part is just speculation as you can see from my rating I don't know how much you need to practice to be a red coder.

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    4 months ago, # ^ |
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    Almost every Red Coder started coding about 8-9 years ago

    i think you are wrong here....codeforces itself started 11-10 years ago

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      4 months ago, # ^ |
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      I meant they started competitive coding on codeforces 8-9 years ago.

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        3 months ago, # ^ |
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        Time taken by famous programmers to become GM ( red )

        • RADEWOOSH — 2yrs max (he has stated that he did CP on other sites before CF)

        • BENQ — 2yrs ( math background )

        • JIANGLY — 7 months

        • 300IQ — 3yrs

        • MANGO_LASSI — 1.5yrs ( math background )

        • HIR180 — 5yrs

        • KSHITIJ_SODANI — 2yrs ( math background )

        just a few

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          3 months ago, # ^ |
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          My apologies I thought the orignal blog was about legendary grandmasters and wrote everything according to that. Only Now I have realized that it said red coder.

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Because most Indians pursue CP just to get jobs, not as an actual hobby or something. Honestly, most are doing it for jobs. Once they land a job they leave it. Landing a job doesn't require you to be a Grandmaster or LGM, most companies are good with Expert or specialist.

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Another thing I’d like to point while talking about this is that I’ve noticed the same trend in big competitions like GCJ and Hacker Cup over several years. In qual round nearly 50 percent participants are Indian. People might think well China must have a good majority too right? Absolutely not on the contrary it has numbers similar to US, Russia and the rest of the world. India sticks out and yet gradually over the rounds there’s hardly 2-3 percent Indians left by R3 and no Indians in the finals in the gcj recorded archives. It’s pretty sad but I think this points to 1 thing, that we statistically as a collective just give up when things get too hard and “out of syllabus” from the Codeforces problem set basket(as is the nature of GCJ rounds progressively) as aptitude abilities of originality and creativity have simply NOT been inculcated in us. From coaching centres to parents deciding their kids futures in tons of cases we have been force fed knowledge and society has not allowed very few of us to have the courage to breakout of it. Really hope that major changes to education system from an early stage can change this mentality cause we know that’s the solution we’re just too afraid to accept it

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Same condition in Bangladesh. We have none in top 200. In our country, teenagers can't have computer because their parents think that they'll go bad. :'(

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why do you bother couldn't you just keep coding like rest of us

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    aww...did I bother you? sorry

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      no but i feel this blog feed was a lot helpul before all this indian issues started coming and being covered in it . we will get better at it just give it some time and relax

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        3 months ago, # ^ |
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        replying during contest?

        PS — I am also replying now, because I can't do D, XD

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From my opinion, main reason is that -----> Our education culture we as a INDIAN know coding stuffs right after 12th or in graduation years.

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Cause, Indian have no hobby,they even dont know meaning of hobby,If they are endulged in any thing then its for sure its for materialistic purpose,and after completion of that purpose they quit.By Indians, I means 80%o of Indian cpeer

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this is because we dont take cp as a sport...we are doing this to get a job!!!

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A lot of indians who could be red if they practice don't practice because they cheat.

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I am surprised that nobody pointed out the obvious bugaboo. Stop calling bugaboos "questions".

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Well, the reason is that people get exposed to these things too late in India. Most of my friends from IITs, NITs and IIITs have never even heard of CP before arriving at University and most of them had no access to computers or phones during high school due to JEE prep, Even in middle school having a internet connection was rare at that time.

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    3 months ago, # ^ |
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    India is an undeveloped country and Internet connectivity is also a major hurdle.

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      "Was"...now internet connectivity is available and we will surely see a rise in the quality of coders in coming years

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These are not the reason for any Indian not present among red coders, the reason is, most of the youths who choose maths are mad about JEE, parents are crazy about JEE examination, and so, students never get an opportunity to explore anything related to coding or other fields.

Second reason is placement package, parents in India want their son/daughter to crack JEE just to get into IITs, so that they may get big fat money after graduation. Once some eligible candidate goes into IITs or other premier college, they get to know how worthless their efforts were just to get selected in a college. Although things are improving slowly but, JEE and coaching is killing creativity and time of many eligible students.

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I see so many guys with JEE trauma here...

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congratulations becoming specialist though DioHERO

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because indians are less smart

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3 months ago, # |
  Vote: I like it 0 Vote: I do not like it

they are all black and red

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2 months ago, # |
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Cause when Indians start coding; they mostly prefer codeshef platform but nowadays many have started code forces too!

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2 months ago, # |
  Vote: I like it -6 Vote: I do not like it

I guess it's because of our lack of actual passion for STEM. Most indian students do something because it will benefit their career in some way, not because they think it would be fun. Our society is responsible for this, When we're in high school we're forced into coaching institutes to get into the top colleges, and when we get to college we're forced to hunt for jobs. And the rat race doesn't end there.

Unfortunately, there isn't a way to prevent this because JEE is one of the only things in India that gives people career opportunities, even for fields that are unrelated to engineering, like computer science, and you can't possibly tell me that JEE is a measure of someone's programming acumen.

There are too few people who actually have an interest in STEM regardless of anything "career-related", because people don't have the right idea of what a good STEM student is supposed to be. They think that a student who spends time to rote memorising everything for hours is a "brilliant" student.

As a person who did a lot of olympiads as a child and even won few of them, I was disappointed that people didn't appreciate it enough, but I've come to acceptance with the fact that there's nothing I can do about it.

I've been a hobbyist programmer for 2 years, since I was 14, and I discovered Codeforces only a few months ago, and I started solving problems only about a month ago. It's hard to balance it out with school and JEE preparation though.

Sometimes, because of my environment, I question whether I'm doing this because I want to or I'm following the rat race that college students do.