### beatoriche's blog

By beatoriche, 10 years ago,

When I was a child, I believed that programmers have to have rational thinking, because um, it is neccessary. A day ago, many people who didn't like my claim that Islam is one of many factors which drives country development down instead criticized my persona. Strangely, no one asked why I thought that. Some liked to pick single data points which supported their opinion, without looking at picture as whole.

First figure: Y-axis: weighted rating (courtesy of CF) X-axis: N registered participants from a country (Sorry, the picture disappears sometimes. if it does: https://www.dropbox.com/s/jgjon8ve3m27ghu/islam-corr.png)

How do we know that correlation on the first figure is indeed causal? There is correlation between amount of exposure to Islam a country had (recent minus year when it converted to Islam), and its performance. Note that Indonesia and Malaysia are also are in unfomfortable timezone for CF.

Note that countries that converted to Islam during life of Mohammad are not present in the table — there is no data for them. Probably because the competitions aren't for their people, they are busy pouring boiling water on Asian maids.

bottom line: programmers don't have more rational thinking than general population. Apparently here, on CF, finding facts to support claims is a bad thing.

• -149

 » 10 years ago, # |   +5 BTW, in Kazakhstan at least Jokser, me, akim and cvm are definitely not muslims (I've looked only at people with 1900+ rating).IMHO, being religious itself heavily affects the ability of rational thinking, it doesn't depend on the exact religion. But there also exist many people that are closer to agnostics that to really religious people — the previous statement doesn't spread to them (at least, as is).
•  » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   +19 So, for example, Donald Knuth can't think rationally and design algorithms because he is religious?
•  » » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   +49 He doesn't have 1700+ rating on Codeforces :)
•  » » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   -19 Every rule has its own exceptions...
•  » » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   -23 Donald Knuth? Never heard...
•  » » » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   +12 google it, he's a legend
•  » » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   +18 One counterexample is not enough to disprove correlation. There can well be many super-intelligent religious individuals.It is well studied fact that being religious correlates negatively with intelligence, though. I don't know of any rigorous studies about the relationship between IQ and CF rank, but I'd assume you need to be able to think relatively fast to do well in CF (which is basically what the IQ tests measure), so it is quite possible that having a religion would correlate negatively with CF rank. This is of course not a complete proof either, as being religious can correlate with many other important factors than IQ, such as being hard-working.
•  » » » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   0 Also, the correlations between IQ and CF rank for populations and individuals are different things.
•  » » » » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   0 Faggots who minus the comment above, care to elaborate?
•  » » » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   0 I think, if you want to get (relative) high rating on TC you need to think very fast (~5 min for problem A almost every time and you get ~2300 rating!) But here skill level and correctness are more important. Even you finish problems A and B very fast, you cannot get such high rating
•  » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   -33 The point is, that Islam damages cognitive abilities of a country as whole, not only muslims. Which is completely different from general reverse religiousness-intelligence correlation. Judaism is similar in Islam in some ways but promoted growth of intelligence, even if the most religious aren't very intelligent.
•  » » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   +10 Explain please, why do you think Judaism promoted growth of intelligence and not something other? Does it differ so much from Islam?
•  » » » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   -31 Regardless of country where they have lived (USSR, USA, etc) Ashkenazi Jews have disproportionate large share in Nobel prizes and other achievements. We cannot see in on CF because CF lists only countries, not ethnicities. Sephardi Jews are smarter than Arab populations amongst whom they lived. Major differences * endogamy/exogamy * monogyny/polygyny * women's clothes * charity * prozelitism
•  » » » » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   +10 Correct me please if I'm wrong but I'm not sure the Nobel prizes winners were religious (in USSR specifically). Furthermore, I'm not sure that they become smart because of their religion and religion of their parents. Why are you so sure about it? I cannot find the reasons in the major differences you listed.
•  » » » » » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   +1 You do not get the point. Whether these Nobel prize winners were religious or not, is completely irrelevant. I was saying that they came from a strongly endogamous population amongst which Judaism was common.
•  » » » » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   +38 You may ask CF users to provide some data — like their religious beliefs, ethnicity, being vegetarian, shoe size, number of brothers/sisters, favorite genre of movies and music, amount of physical activity and so on — i think that most of CF users will be glad to give you such information, if you'll use it for some interesting statistical research. Just please don't give next topic name "People who are listening grunge are mentally deranged".
•  » » » » » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   0 you are trolling me, right?
•  » » » » » » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   0 No... He is admiring you...
•  » » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   +14 The point is, that Islam damages cognitive abilities of a country as whole It looks Islam have damaged your cognitive abilities too, even if you are not religious at all...
•  » » » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   0 Sure.
 » 10 years ago, # |   +17 That's just nonsense -- sorry for being too strong but this the truth. Islam doesn't alter performance, on the contrary it should boost it. The true Islam oblige people to work hard (you can check it easily it is on the Quran). You may still say that the reality is another thing, but you have to be aware of some facts. Unlike you, we were not exposed to programming since we were youth (that's the problem of our elders), now more people are aware of this and it will change a little by little with time. You should never justify the performance of a population with religion, because there a lot of people who are muslims but still better than you (ahmed_aly for example). One think, if you studied Islam better you'll understand what I am talking about. The conclusion of this is that many people are not doing Islam the way it should,and should not be used to justify something else. So next time, do not argue about something based on something not true -- It is known as a fallacy :)
•  » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   +14 that is ad hominem reasoning Saudis may buy as many computers as they want to, but they are not even present in ratings how do you know these high ranked are indeed truly believers, instead of just afraid of having their head severed, as Islam recommends for apostates?
•  » » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   +7 CF rating is not the only way to judge a Nation's brainstorming abilities. The "Saudi"s you are so happily mocking won 2 silver and 3 bronze medal's in International Mathematical Olympiad 2012,placing 29th overall. Iran is a strictly Islamic country and they perform really well in IOI ( this year,two Golds and two Silvers).
•  » » » » 10 years ago, # ^ | ← Rev. 4 →   +8 As I know, Saudi Arabian team takes medals on IMO since well-known Titu Andreescu started work with it ( http://imo-official.org/country_team_r.aspx?code=SAU ). Actually, 2 silvers and 15 bronzes from 2004 to 2014 isn't a good result for a country with 25 millions people. So, sorry, but I find your arguments baseless.
•  » » » » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   0 Make a more detailed comparison. So we could see a general picture.
•  » » » » » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   0 What would you like to compare? I just broke some baseless arguments.
•  » » » » » » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   +6 Saudis may buy as many computers as they want to, but they are not even present in ratingsIt seems equivalent to saying "they are all stupid". I only meant to say that, may be they are not all stupid and they are definitely trying to get better,aren't they? May be in 3 to 4 years we will see them in CF too. I was not going to compare one nation against another nor one religion against another. But it sounded extremely offensive to me to simply call a whole nation "stupid".
 » 10 years ago, # | ← Rev. 2 →   +29 I'm sorry to say so, but I do not like to see posts like this at wonderful CodeForces resource.I wish there could be a button like "Blame" or "Complain". :(BTW the charts are necessarily biased since CF is made in Russia and significant number of participants (at all levels) are from there and from China, so your input data are far from being representative.
•  » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   0 Go to Saudi Arabia Train their students so they would win TCO, CF, ICPC, GCJ, etc. ???? PROFIT!
•  » » 10 years ago, # ^ | ← Rev. 2 →   0 These charts are biased AGAINST Russia, not for. Because novices from Russia are likely to compete on CF, whereas e.g. novice Egyptians might choose local Egyptian servers. By the time they appear on CF, they probably know at least a bit of English and their capabilities improved. Even if we remove Russia, what will it change?
 » 10 years ago, # |   +63 It seems that programming/mathematical abilities of some european countries (like Norway) are also so week. Is Islam official religion of Norway?
•  » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   +97 In Nordic countries we are just stupid, even without religious influences.
 » 10 years ago, # |   0 What are all these numbers on the first chart?
•  » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   +23
 » 10 years ago, # |   +14 Correlation on the first graph may be caused either by "brain being damaged" or by growing popularity of CP in countries listed.
•  » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   -8 what's why I made the second figure :)
•  » » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   +17 The second figure is just a kind of false correlation. Change "1700/N" to "country population" and you will make another breakthrough — "Islam depopulates your country".
•  » » » » 10 years ago, # ^ | ← Rev. 2 →   0 Nope. 1700+/N is a dimensionless number. If you had been in interested in truth you would have suggested to make more detailed statistic analysis, not dumb it down.
•  » » » » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   0 Dimension is not a problem. The problem is that your analysis will be changed if you will split e.g. Iran to "South Iran" and "North Iran". Unless you have a symmetry to such transitions your analysis will get any results you wish, as your data aggregation looses a part of data. At least you should weigh all the points with N number or population.
 » 10 years ago, # |   +1 This is OT, but basic rules for writing graphs include: Name the variables graphed on the x- and y-axis, right next to them. I'm guessing it's "average CF rating" vs "number of users registered", but that's not something you should leave for the reader to guess.Since I'm not particularly interested in statistics of lazy bums who register, do a contest, don't solve anything, say that this is stupid and leave forever... in case it's just unweighted average rating, I think a graph with average rating weighted by number of contests would be better.
 » 10 years ago, # |   0 I am so sorry to see this kind of post. you may or may not believe in religion but you do not have right to hurt people's belief. Before talking about Islam or any other religions you should have a good knowledge about it. I bet you do not even know about Muslim's contribution to Science. Do you know who was Muḥammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī ?? Use google. There are lots intelligence people still out there who believe in Islam
 » 10 years ago, # |   +23 What's surprising to me in this discussion is that no one seems to have remembered the origin of the term "algorithm" yet:)
•  » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   +8 The same with algebra I think and hindu-arabic numerals which we use.
 » 10 years ago, # |   -19 Islam is not factor of degradation, It's ideal. Don't claim religion you don't know anything about. Just take Qur'an and read it and you'll became a muslim because it's very powerful and great. And majority of scientists and philosophers name our Prophet Muhammad(p.b.u.h) the greatest human ever!!
•  » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   0 Muhammad is the most famous p.d.p.i.e ever!
•  » » 10 years ago, # ^ | ← Rev. 2 →   0 If you know more about Islam than me, please correct my very crude figures when listed countries became Islamic.
 » 10 years ago, # | ← Rev. 3 →   +21 Olympiads results don't depend on religion of concrete participants, they're caused only by educational traditions of different countries. There are no stupid people, there are week traditions, bad trainers and unmotivated students. Of course, some religions in some countries have very big influence in scale(like Islam), but this influence is much more deeper, then olympiad results — they're connected with history, especially with religion wars, which often prevented a progress. Iran is a very good example of a country with strong religious and educational traditions, so, arguments of author of this topic aren't very strong.
 » 10 years ago, # |   +16 Why don't you try to create similar comparison for "White countries" and "Color countries" — separate them by prevailing racial factor.I'm sure you will get even more significant (and similarly stupid and useless) results!However probably after that you may eventually came to idea that your CF rating by country somehow corelates with average personal income.
•  » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   0 Ok. I will write about it.
•  » » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   0
 » 10 years ago, # |   +19 I dont care about your data because you cant judge a religion by Codeforces statisticsCodeforces was made to judge submissions, not religions
 » 10 years ago, # |   +27 Yes, you know something that's the problem i'm muslim and i'm not high rated but i know now the reason.When i code before i write any word in the code i have to say "in the name of god" or i'll die!. Also i can't fix my hand on the keyboard, know why? because i ride a camel while coding!. I don't have time for training, know why? because i spend the whole day pouring boiling water on Asian maids!.but you know something i've made some statistics like you did and came to some amazing facts i'd like to add to your's!93% of coders with +80 kgs weight aren't high rated on the other hand most of high rated coders are thin!75.4% of coders who eat sushi are high rated!64.89% of blonde coders are high rated!81.34% of coders with glasses are high rated!100% of high rated coders are high rated coders!So, if i want to be a high rated coder i've to be thin, eat a lot of sushi, dye my hair to yellow, wear glasses and according to your statistics become non-muslim. wow what an amazing recipe!You know, i feel pity for you, i feel pity that there are still people whose impression about someone is based on racial discrimination.If someone is a high rated coder or intelligent generally, it's him the genius not his religion, not because of his style or because he's eating sushi!I feel pity that we see this kind of posts here on Codeforces where we come to compete and learn from each other not to judge or insult each other's beliefs.
•  » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   0 Since when Islam is a race?
•  » » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   0 will if you take the approximate number of Muslims in the world which is 1,549,200,059 approximately 24% of the world's population you might consider Islam more than just a race
•  » » » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   0 Race is immutable trait, people can't choose it. Religion isn't.
 » 10 years ago, # | ← Rev. 3 →   +4 After seeing this blog, I have searched for top ranked coder of some country in codeforces and it has astonished me !!! *** From England there are 13 coders and top ranked is a Candidate Master *** From Singapore there are only 23 coders and top ranked is a Candidate Master *** From Norway there are 21 coders and top ranked is a Master (only one from this country) *** From Netherlands there are 11 coders and top ranked is an International Master (only one from this country) *** From Ireland there are 14 coders and top ranked is a Candidate Master *** From Denmark there are 9 coders and top ranked is a Candidate Master *** From Luxembourg there is only 1 coder and he/she is Specialist...Is Islam official religion of this countries ??? Does Islam prevent this countries to give a RED CODER ???If you look at the ranking, you will see too many red coders from Russia and China... Why ??? Because, they have attached it with their culture .... They are passionate with it... I am from Bangladesh ... I have heard about the term Programming when I admitted in varsity... Because then programming was not popular... Now time is changing... Students from very few schools are competing in this community too (In our time(10 years ago), we could not even think it)... We have a red coder too... Hope it will increase ... But what happens in the country like Russia, China or Belarus ??? They do it from very early age... tourist won gold medal in IOI 2007 at the age of 13... then I was 17, but had no idea about programming... because there was no one to tell me to take the taste of programming... I think it tells a lot.... There is nothing about Islam in this fact... The countries you mentioned are not good enough... because they are not passionate with it... That is the fact...
•  » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   +5 Actually, there are several coders from the Netherlands:http://codeforces.com/ratings/country/The%20Netherlands
•  » » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   +1 Sorry... :( I've edited now...
•  » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   0 From weighted rating vs. number of registered participants, countries you listed aren't actually that bad.
•  » » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   +9 So what forbid people of this countries to be registered in Codeforces and to be a Red Coder ??? According to your blog, Islam ???What I'm trying to indicate, this nations are just not passionate with programming... So they are not in this community...
•  » » » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   -16 I am not going to explain to those who do not wish to understand.
 » 10 years ago, # |   +29 Hey guys, are you seriously discussing impact of religion on programming competitions skills? "programmers with rational thinking" mentioned in this post would never respond to the shit topic-starter is talking about. Religion is the thing that makes people create greatest stuff as well as make mistakes, it's own business of every single person how to use it.Now stop discussing troll rubbish on CodeForces.
•  » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   0 The usual pictures associated with this kind of threads are See more on Know Your Meme.
•  » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   0 According to the first figure, its impact is about 200 points of rating, pretty significant.
 » 10 years ago, # |   +30 Are you kidding? The results of the whole country depends on O(1) enthusiasts who teach other people at schools or universities. If you exclude China, Russia and Japan then you will see no difference between religious and any other participants. For example, Iranian guys are doing really well at IOI and, afaik, Iranian are traditionally good in math. I believe that this topic is quite offensive itself and it should be closed.
•  » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   0 The small number of enthusiasts still has to be drawn from large O(N) population. If you think exclusion of Russia, China and Japan would change something, why don't you do so and post a figure? Iran does well only compared to other Islamic countries, compared to non-Islamic, it's below average.
 » 10 years ago, # |   +21 There should be some rules against posts like these. All it does is start flame wars. Religion is a choice. You are not only insulting Islam, but moreover, in your comments you are "promoting" Judaism, showing it as somehow superior. Don't force your beliefs on people, it's stupid and it really angers me seeing people like this.I'm not religious but it's just stupid to see such posts, they're pointless and really should be removed.
 » 10 years ago, # |   +12 The worst, and most offensive blog I've ever seen. Please remove it until it breaks record in negative votes
•  » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   -15 if someone is offended by 2+2=4 should I remove it?
•  » » » 10 years ago, # ^ | ← Rev. 2 →   0 You said that hundreds of millions of people have damaged cognitive abilities because of their religion, that is far from saying 2+2=4. You did not provided any proofs — one should test mental abilities by some complicated set of tests, and not by ACM results. And all the stuff that you said looks like this way: in Saratov we have 12 red coders out of 144 contestants, in Yekaterinburg number of red coders is 8 out of 67, and in Novosibirsk (you are from Novosibirsk, right?) there are only 3 red coders out of 126 contestants. That proves that living in Novosibirsk is damaging your brain really hard. I still want to believe that you are just a troll:) But your harming offensive unproven claims about religion is a shame for all russian community. I want to say to all CF muslims that I am really sorry for beatoriche, his views, beliefs, and the way he is trying to force his views and beliefs on other people.
•  » » » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   -13 Yes, evidence I have gathered is very scarce. But, I believe that no amount of evidence would convince you. Some go as far to even reject evolution. I am not trying to force anyone to my belief. I've only published some graphs. It is in Muslim countries large minority of unbelievers are opressed upon and pretend to believe in all that Islamic stuff. It is in Muslim countries disbelief in God may be punished. They have no choice, Islamic opression pervades every aspect of their life. Compared to that, discomfort from my graphs, that people may have choice not to see, is microscopic.
•  » » » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   +3 in Saratov we have 12 red coders out of 144 contestants, in Yekaterinburg number of red coders is 8 out of 67 it seems the number of red coders in Russia varies as . :D
•  » » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   0 I think Codeforces community have already decided about this blog...struggling has no more points
•  » » » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   -6 I am not forcing anyone to read it. If community believes in something, this does not neccessarily makes it true.
 » 10 years ago, # |   +13 I heard that Israel has been paying bloggers for writing in it's favor and against Islam. While your blog is against Islam, your comments are promoting Judaism. So I believe you're making some good money.Please understand that in math and programming there's nothing at all that collide with Islam(I believe with no other religions too) Most preferably Islam is the religion of poor people. Those who are weak and poor love Islam as it secures their rights. Those, who are developed and rich don't like Islam as it will restrict them from wasting food, drinking alcohol, killing bull in the name of sports etc. Most of the rulers in Arab region use Islam to get respect from weaker Islamic states (Religion is one of the strongest weapons of politicians) but have no Islamic moral in them. So mostly as the poor observe the religion, they can't make it to higher rating as most of them even can't ensure their higher studies. In my university life I had no laptop and power failure is common in my country. After buying my laptop my rating never went below 1200 in TopCoder, earlier it was impossible for me to do a contest 20 minutes without a random power failure and was very hard to stay in div I.Religion is just a veil, economy matters.
•  » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   0 Tell me where can i get payment? Unlike me, you don't have a single fact to base your opinion.
•  » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   -8 especially Saudi & UAE are poor, that's why they don't participate.
•  » » » 10 years ago, # ^ | ← Rev. 2 →   +19 There are specific countries of other religions too who don't participate. Will mentioning their names stop you?And I would say as a person who can think rationally(!) your rating is very poor. Why don't you work on that specially?
•  » » » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   -17 Can you explain why there are participants from poorer countries like Morocco or Syria, but not Saudi & UAE? The trend is the same on TC.I am not sure if you're asking about my rating to insult me or truly curious. If the latter, ask that question in http://codeforces.com/blog/entry/12463
•  » » 10 years ago, # ^ |   0 I approve some settings of Islam, like ban on alcohol. And I'm pooper than most of my peers. I have not studied "Islamic moral" and "false Islam". From the data, it appears that both types have negative influence for CF ratings. Poor, but non-Islamic countries like Vietnam get much better.
 » 10 years ago, # |   -8 Core part of programming is algorithm. And it is invented by a Muslim mathematician Abu Abdullah Muhammad ibn Musa Al-Khwarizmi. http://www.scriptol.com/programming/algorithm-history.php
 » 3 years ago, # |   0 wow wow what a blog>>
 » 12 months ago, # |   0 This is the most idiot thing I read about actually LOL!Dghemy Come to see this :3
•  » » 12 months ago, # ^ | ← Rev. 2 →   0 He is like human before knowing the science called history , It is better for him to know who we are and what Muslims have done for sciences such as encryption, medicine and others before he talks like a fool , in the end he just watch TV to much and forget History Books.
•  » » » 12 months ago, # ^ |   0 I think he just should know that the base idea behind Codeforces is Algorithms Clearly He doesn't know Muhammed Bn Musa Alkhwarzmy XD