maroonrk's blog

By maroonrk, history, 7 months ago, In English

Thank you for sharing your opinion on my last blog.

I considered what kind of participants I'd like to honor the most. It was those who have strong confidence and eagerness to take part in contests, not those who care about their rating too much or think like, "what if I can't solve a problem...".

Thus I finally decided to adopt an "open-then-rated" system.

Now it's time to determine the details of the new system. What I'm currently considering is the followings:

  • If you try to open a problem in the first five or ten minutes of a contest, you see a Read Problems button, and pressing it confirms your rated participation.
  • If you are late (or don't press the button in the first five or ten minutes), you are unrated, but still can read and submit to the problems. Also, your name will be shown in the standings and it counts for GP30 scores.

This is a draft, so if you have a concern or an idea, please share it here.

 
 
 
 
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7 months ago, # |
Rev. 2   Vote: I like it -19 Vote: I do not like it

do I need to press "read" button for every question or pressing it once will count for all problem?

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    7 months ago, # ^ |
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    pressing it confirms your rated participation

    The button is for this, so you only need to press it once.

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7 months ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +16 Vote: I do not like it

Will we become unable to participate as rated if we are late?

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7 months ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +48 Vote: I do not like it

When are you planning to apply this new system? In particular, is it before next AGC(3/6)?

we may feel comfortable and easy to adapt if there is something like a testing round before the start of the new system.

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    7 months ago, # ^ |
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    I'm not an engineer so I don't know how long it takes to implement this change, but I assume at least in the next AGC we have the usual system. I also assume there will be a testing round or something.

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      7 months ago, # ^ |
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      Yes, please keep one testing round. It will help us adapt in this new environment

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7 months ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +44 Vote: I do not like it

Is this system to be applied to all rated contests (including ABC), only ARC/AGC, or only AGC?

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7 months ago, # |
Rev. 4   Vote: I like it -71 Vote: I do not like it

I want an unrated "Read Problems button" to enter contests without waiting five or ten minutes.

I really hope that AtCoder's rating system will not change anything. However, I also understand your plan is a necessary change for AtCoder to grow into a big service.

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7 months ago, # |
  Vote: I like it -14 Vote: I do not like it

there has been some instances where i have started contests after even 20-25mins, so considering i wont be the only with this kind of situation, i think the ideas of your prev blog post were better, if a vote is considered from me.

  • You'll have a register-as-unrated button. You can switch rated and unrated only before opening a problem.
  • If you are registered as a rated participant, you'll get rated when you open a problem, even if you don't submit.
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7 months ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +105 Vote: I do not like it

"Late-then-unrated" system seems good because cheaters can't gain advantages using their sub-accounts.

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7 months ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +42 Vote: I do not like it

It is a great idea.

Some of my friends don't submit unless they solve all the 6 problems to keep their rating.

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7 months ago, # |
  Vote: I like it -16 Vote: I do not like it

Can you submit the problem before you pressed the button? Should'n there be another button to accept your non-rating participation ?

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7 months ago, # |
  Vote: I like it -20 Vote: I do not like it

If you try to open a problem

in the first five or ten minutes of a contest, you see a Read Problems button, and pressing it confirms your rated participation.

The second part makes the first part redundant.

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7 months ago, # |
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If someone pressed the button and didn't submit anything then he will be counted as a non-participant or a participant didn't solve anything and lose rating ?

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7 months ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +49 Vote: I do not like it

Will you make it possible to tell if a contestant is rated or not from standings? This information is necessary for the difficulty estimation in AtCoder Problems (https://kenkoooo.com/atcoder).

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7 months ago, # |
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What's GP30?

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7 months ago, # |
Rev. 3   Vote: I like it -35 Vote: I do not like it

Edit: Many of the same points were made in the other thread (linked in the original post), I didn't see it before I wrote my post.

Good idea. Perhaps 5 or 10 minutes is too tight. What about 15-30 minutes? If you clearly state that "by clicking this button the contest will be rated for you", I don't see any big problems with it.

I have previously voiced my concern that the "no submission implies not rated" rule is easily abused.

Suppose a contestant struggles to solve any problem in the first 5, 10, 15, 30, 60 or 90 minutes of a contest, and they have not yet submitted anything. In other words, our contestant has a poor start. What options do they face?

Option 1, submit at least one solution and continue: The contestant accepts the poor start and high likelihood of negative delta.

Option 2, resign and do not submit anything: The contestant resigns (decides not to submit anything) which leads to a guaranteed outcome of zero delta.

So we have "high likelihood of negative delta" vs "guaranteed zero delta". I think many will find the latter option more attractive. But clearly this creates perverse incentives. It creates a situation where: 1) if you get a good start and/or have integrity you get rated 2) if you have a poor start and/or have low integrity you are not rated

Another way to put it is: the rating of the contestant will not reflect their failure in the contest.

Anyway, your suggestion does not perfectly solve the problem outlined above. But it is a good start.

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    7 months ago, # ^ |
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    I know it's a complicated stuff, but put it simply you also wanted to tell that this idea has the looks of being better than the current system. AtCoder is opening up to the world now more than ever and Implementing noble ideas to tackle mischiefs in contest is a good initiative and will pave way for other sites like Codeforces and Codechef too to adopt such techniques to tackle the rising issue of cheating.

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7 months ago, # |
  Vote: I like it 0 Vote: I do not like it

It is simple to workarround that button using an alt account. With literally only two more clicks one can read the problems without being rated. So in first place this offers another level of tactical behaviour in a contest which has only little in common with the spirit of competitive programming.

From my point of view this obfuscates the graphical user interface instead of adressing the problem.

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    7 months ago, # ^ |
    Rev. 2   Vote: I like it +15 Vote: I do not like it

    When you increase the cost of something you get less of it. This is what the proposed rule would do.

    The fact that proposed rule does not solve all problems is not a good argument. The litmus test ought to be whether the effects are a net positive.

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      7 months ago, # ^ |
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      Yes, you are right with this, increasing the costs of "bad bahaviour" is per se a good thing.

      Here, however, the bad behavior is even rewarded. If you configure your browser so that you can switch accounts with just a few clicks, you will get a tactical advantage in return. I am sure we agree that this is not a good thing.

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        7 months ago, # ^ |
        Rev. 2   Vote: I like it +18 Vote: I do not like it

        Even if you can read problems, it's pretty hard to predict your performance in 10 minutes. Even if you get that slight tactical advantage, there will be risk of forgetting to open problems with original account and missing a favorable contest. Overall a lot less people will be doing it compared to current number of people who attempt "submit only if performance is good"

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7 months ago, # |
  Vote: I like it -22 Vote: I do not like it

Ten minutes is too small for a contest with 270 minuhtes duration (e.g. AGC 051). I think a better time limit for opening problems would be 1/10 of contest duration.

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7 months ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +32 Vote: I do not like it

Why does the contestant has to press the button(i.e. decide whether rated) in 10min after the contest starts instead of 10min before the contest starts? Theoretically, the contestant should not be able to see anything before pressing the button, so this should be the same except that if it is after the contest starts, the contestants gaining knowledge of the problems (using alts, etc) before pressing the button gains advantage illegally.

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    7 months ago, # ^ |
      Vote: I like it +23 Vote: I do not like it

    It can often happen that some contestants get ready for a contest a few minutes after the contest starts, and I don't want to make them unrated for only a few minutes. In addition, I don't think 10 mins make a big differnce.

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      7 months ago, # ^ |
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      Maybe you can make a button called "I want to be unrated" and participant will be able to see the problems as well.

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7 months ago, # |
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I think even if a user is late, he should be given the rights to have this contest rated.

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7 months ago, # |
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This will be a great initiative.

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7 months ago, # |
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It is great,and I won't care about my ratings.

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7 months ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +35 Vote: I do not like it

What is the point of "Read Problems" button v/s just a "Join as Rated" button? The first one is still a bit unfair since people might use alts to read the later problems and in 5-10 minutes join if they're doable. In the latter, basically everyone can read any problem and decide if they want it to be rated in the first few minutes. So the latter is a fair system that makes alts totally redundant.

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7 months ago, # |
  Vote: I like it +3 Vote: I do not like it

damn, I thought this rule was already implemented and started the contest 10 minutes after :(