tmwilliamlin168's blog

By tmwilliamlin168, history, 6 months ago, In English,

Hello,

I have dual citizenship (Taiwan and USA), and I currently study in an American high school located in Taiwan. I've already participated in the regional contest about 7 weeks ago and did pretty well, so I qualified for the national contest.

So now I'm practicing as much as I can for the national contest, but recently I was told that I could qualify for the training camp but not the national team for Taiwan.

I searched online for IOI rules and found this link on the IOI-2017 site: http://www.ioinformatics.org/rules/reg17.pdf. Here are some parts of it that stood out:

"A Contestant is a student who was enrolled in a school at a level not higher than secondary education, in the Country they are representing, for the majority of the period 1 September to 31 December in the year before IOI’n. Students who are studying abroad may represent the Country of their nationality."

Not only am I studying in Taiwan, I also have Taiwan citizenship, so I definitely fit this criterion.

"The main objectives to be accomplished by the IOI are:

  • To discover, encourage, bring together, challenge, and give recognition to young people who are exceptionally talented in the field of informatics;

  • To foster friendly international relationships among computer scientists and informatics educators;

  • To bring the discipline of informatics to the attention of young people;

  • To promote the organisation of informatics competitions for students at schools for secondary education;

  • To encourage countries to organise a future IOI in their country."

Later, I asked for clarification about why I was ineligible, which doesn't support the objectives shown above:

"The national teams are supposed to show that Taiwanese education is superior to other education systems. If a student from a foreign school represents Taiwan in an international olympiad, then it defeats the purpose. Thus, you are ineligible to represent Taiwan in international olympiads."

  1. Other countries, like USA, don't care about things like the statement above.
  2. The statement above only applies if the contestants perform well. Else, they should invite someone "with a different education system" (I don't know why it matters) to take the blame for not performing well.
  3. Which person at IOI would notice which school I came from?
  4. Which person at IOI who even noticed which school I came from would bother to know that my school provides American education?
  5. Which person at IOI who even noticed which school I came from and that my school provides American education would change their views about Taiwan?
  6. Why can't they credit my results (IF they are even good) to the training that I received in the training camp in Taiwan?
  7. Of course "Taiwanese education" and "American education" prepares all students for international olympiads (for example for informatics, by teaching topics like Dynamic Programming Optimizations or Heavy-Light Decomposition in school), and it's not the contestants' own hard work. Thus, the results for each country accurately reflects how successful the education system in that country is.

I don't really have that much experience or knowledge in everything mentioned above. Maybe IOI set a "loose bound" for the eligible contestants, and each country can set its own "tighter bound", so I came here to ask, what are your thoughts?

Hopefully, this can be a precedent that will be explained for all countries and contestants in the future.

 
 
 
 
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6 months ago, # |
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Auto comment: topic has been updated by tmwilliamlin168 (previous revision, new revision, compare).

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6 months ago, # |
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"The national teams are supposed to show that Taiwanese education is superior to other education systems. If a student from a foreign school represents Taiwan in an international olympiad, then it defeats the purpose. Thus, you are ineligible to represent Taiwan in international olympiads."

So this may be the wrong place and time to ask those questions, but I am genuinely interested and generally love to complain about those things. How much does the Taiwanese education system really contribute to success in olympiads? Most secondary education I am familiar with has been straight up counterproductive to success in international olympiads.

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    6 months ago, # ^ |
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    The last time I went to a Taiwanese school was in 4th grade, so I don't know the specific details.

    There is a big test that all Taiwanese high-schoolers spend a long time preparing for which covers everything from the start of high school (10th grade). I know that the US doesn't have this test (maybe the SAT, but it doesn't cover that much material), but I'm not sure about other countries.

    A good thing is that the top 10 from the training camp get a recommendation for guaranteed admission to any college.

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    6 months ago, # ^ |
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    I believe that William should be eligible and find it strange that anyone actually uses the IOI to compare education systems. To answer your question though, I thought the system was conducive to success in international olympiads. The schools are set up such that the best students all end up at together (with the unfortunate byproduct that the worst students also end up together), and at least when I studied there, the top students in each subject received additional classes which focused almost entirely on olympiad style problems.

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    6 months ago, # ^ |
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    As a '15 IOI participant from Taiwan, I have to say that the education system has absolutely zero contribution to IOI.

    It's quite a weird restriction blocking TAS students from participating IOI, since lots of ISEF representatives are from TAS in Taiwan.

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6 months ago, # |
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The national teams are supposed to show that Taiwanese education is superior to other education systems. If a student from a foreign school represents Taiwan in an international olympiad, then it defeats the purpose. Thus, you are ineligible to represent Taiwan in international olympiads.

Who said this?

It is clear that this is against the spirit of IOI, and your points are very good. You are eligible for being a team member.

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    6 months ago, # ^ |
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    It was either a secretary from the training camp or just the ministry of education.

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    6 months ago, # ^ |
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    Honestly this just sounds like the words of some patriot who hasn't really got a clue about education or its role in international olympiads...

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    6 months ago, # ^ |
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    Also, regarding this issue, I heard it was the same this year in Turkey, where students from certain schools (although geographically placed inside Turkey, with Turkish students) weren't allowed to have contenders in the National Olympiad or something like that. Source

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6 months ago, # |
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http://www.ioinformatics.org/a_d_m/president.shtml

The IOI president is from your country. He should know the IOI rules very well. I would send a message to him and explain the situation.

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    6 months ago, # ^ |
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    What I've heard is that a few years ago people from the ministry of education voted against letting students in foreign schools represent Taiwan in any international olympiads, so I don't know if that would help.

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      6 months ago, # ^ |
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      Well, if this is true, it is clearly against the IOI regulations.

      A2.5:

      [A selection procedure] is open to all eligible students in their delegation's Country, although restrictions may be placed on where, when and how students can enter the procedure, and a student's nationality can be limited to that of the relevant Country.

      I think that if the ministry of education has made such a decision, they will change their mind if another option is that Taiwan must be excluded from the IOI because they don't follow the IOI regulations.

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        6 months ago, # ^ |
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        How can a high school student contact with the IOI president and the ministry of education?

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          6 months ago, # ^ |
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          At least the IOI president (and the other members of the IOI committee) are easy to contact: just send them an email.

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        6 months ago, # ^ |
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        The "where, when, and how" seems a little ambiguous, but it shouldn't include restrictions on schools, right?

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          6 months ago, # ^ |
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          Yeah, it is a bit ambiguous. Still, it would not make sense to restrict the schools of the participants. I would interpret that, for example, the final round of the national contest may be organized in a certain city.

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6 months ago, # |
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So I'm also Taiwanese and posted this to my Facebook. ltf0501 claims that the 2014 IMO national team had a member who had dual citizenship AND was attending a high school geographically in the US. Whether the rules changed after that is beyond our grasp though.

BTW, there was a time when a lot of people thought my online handle was tmwilliamlin :D

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6 months ago, # |
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Hello. As I could understand from regulations point A2.5, Taiwanese Ministry of Education is able to restrict your participation in selection procedure, because you have dual citizenship. But still you have a chance to be selected in USA team (regulations point S2.5).

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    6 months ago, # ^ |
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    So I mean, they can ban your participation, because you are US citizen as well.

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    6 months ago, # ^ |
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    Why? The rule say they can restrict non-Taiwan citizenship students from participating, it don't mean anything about dual citizenship.

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6 months ago, # |
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I think the selection system of national team for IOI in Taiwan is quite controversial, and I had heard lots of people complain about it for a long time.

Last year I had participate the entrance exam of training camp, and during the contest the judge system has broken while they just told us it works noramally. Also, the contest style in each region can differ a lot, some region would judge your solution after the contest has ended (some region even judge by human), while others not. The problem quality is also controversial sometimes, I think.

And the thing you had mentioned in the comments "A good thing is that the top 10 from the training camp get a recommendation for guaranteed admission to any college." won't be true as well. Last year, the sixth (or seventh) place has failed to enroll in NTU (considered the best university in Taiwan).

I hope the system in Taiwan would be better after your case, and best wishes for your national contest.

p.s. sorry for my poor English ability.

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    6 months ago, # ^ |
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    Actually according to the rule, it says "the top 8-12 from the training camp get a recommendation for guaranteed admission to any college."

    At least in the recent 3 years, the top 12 from the training camp get a recommendation for guaranteed admission to any college.

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      6 months ago, # ^ |
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      I know... he was sadly rejected by NTU due to his academic performance in his high school

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      6 months ago, # ^ |
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      From what I've heard, I thought NTU would usually deny the person who came in last out of all the applicants?

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        6 months ago, # ^ |
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        I remember that I've heard somebody enroll in NTU with a 11 or 12 place in training camp while he has well academic performance in his school some years ago (maybe the rule today has been changed or I've just misremember it.)

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          6 months ago, # ^ |
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          Interesting... The results should be out in a few weeks, gotta keep my fingers crossed :D

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6 months ago, # |
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I read the rules, and they say IOI only accepts an selection procedures that :

  • Is based on ability and includes a test of the students’ programming and problem solving ability
  • Is open to all eligible students in their delegation’s Country, although restrictions may be placed on where, when and how students can enter the procedure, and a student’s nationality can be limited to that of the relevant Country.

If you are unable to participate in Taiwan TST, then it is not a valid selection procedure as it violates point 2. Taiwan teams didn't took a valid TST, so they are not eligible. If you fail to take the TST, you can ask IOI organization to ban uneligible Taiwan teams from participating in IOI 2018.

Of course I never ever want to make innocent students suffer! I just hope this can be a good point for you to make for the bureaucrats.

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    6 months ago, # ^ |
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    Is china also breaking this rule by not letting students who already have gold, go to IOI?

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      6 months ago, # ^ |
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      you can think of "not getting a gold" as passing the selection test for next IOI which follows rule 1.

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6 months ago, # |
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Talks with the government are useless. Since you are a US citizen, it maybe better to find if you are eligible for USACO

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6 months ago, # |
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If your description of your situation is correct and complete, I fully agree that you should be eligible to represent Taiwan at the IOI, and denying you the opportunity goes against the spirit of the IOI.

The advice given by pllk in this thread is very good, I completely agree with it. Start by contacting Greg Lee who is the current IOI President. Actually, the fact that he is from Taiwan may either be lucky or unlucky in this case, that remains to be seen. Lucky because he should have all the necessary information and a lot of power to help you, unlucky because he cannot be impartial in this case. If you are unable to resolve this issue by talking to him, one possible last resort is to bring it to the attention of the entire International Committee of the IOI.

Good luck!

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4 months ago, # |
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Update: The government just issued this order. http://imotwn.stat.ncu.edu.tw/download.php?sn=348&f=0 It's in Chinese, but basically it clarifies that students in American Schools are no longer (after 4/29/2015) eligible for selection of Taiwan teams for every Olympiads and ISEF. Quite stunning, but this is how Taiwan's government works.

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2 months ago, # |
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Another update: After summing up all the team selection test, OP got the first. The team selection committee has not yet officially announced any possible action that they will take, but it is really likely that they choose the fifth place/sixth place instead of OP (the fifth place is probably in the IMO team this year, so some people say they might prefer the sixth place). I have no idea what will happen next, but I hope that OP gets what he deserves.

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    2 months ago, # ^ |
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    Please help him.

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    2 months ago, # ^ |
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    so did OP contact the IOI president? If so, what was the response given?

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      2 months ago, # ^ |
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      He said that he tried but couldn't really do anything to solve this problem.

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        2 months ago, # ^ |
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        They should ban Taiwan until they allow students from foreign high schools participate.

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    2 months ago, # ^ |
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    Did he contact the IC of IOI, or he will if he doesn't get the deserved place in the team?

    Edit: Didn't see redocyz's comment.

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      2 months ago, # ^ |
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      What if we all try to contact with him? He wouldn't care if only one kid contacts.

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6 weeks ago, # |
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Any update?

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    5 weeks ago, # ^ |
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    Sad News. The team member result has been published, and OP didn't qualified as a national team member.

    The Official Announcement (in Chinese)

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      5 weeks ago, # ^ |
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      What the fuck? And everyone is letting it slide?

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        5 weeks ago, # ^ |
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        Taiwan should delete this stupid rule before next year.

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          5 weeks ago, # ^ |
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          The way I see it Taiwan should be fuckin' banned unless they include OP in the team. This is injustice in plain sight.

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            5 weeks ago, # ^ |
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            Or at least IOI IC should make exception and give him right to participate. Idk if he has contacted them.

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              5 weeks ago, # ^ |
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              I am really sad that we have no choice but obey the stupid rule. It would be great if people around the world all stand out and speak for the OP to IOI IC, but I am afraid that this rule will remain the same in Taiwan.

              To OP: Fuck Taiwan government and try to shine in USACO. Taiwan is not worth it for you to stay in.

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                5 weeks ago, # ^ |
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                At least, iloveUtaha is allowed to go to IOI and IMO at the same time. I think it is also a controversial issue in Taiwan, lol.